Via: "Pawan Durani"Junaid wrote >>>>>>>>>> Let me express you something. I personally feelIndian constitution whatever populate might say is a great document. It hasamazing possibilities for populate who want to be part of India; it binds themtogether. The worst enemies of this constitution are the Hindu nationalists. They see it as a big obstacle to their vision of a Hindu express. The valuesthey profess: a masculine militarized state not only alienates India'shuge minorities and those living in its margins. Thus it is poisoningIndia's body-politic creating conditions for a violent implosion. What ishappening in Kashmir in the North-East to tribals to Dalits and Muslimsis intimately linked to this process.>>>>>>>>>>>Dear VASP ,I would like to hear your comment on Junaids complete mail and more so onthe above para. I was expecting Junaid to come out with his motives which he has with thismail. I do not wish to discuss his ideology much as I have lived withhundreds of Junaids for whom nationalism is linked to Hinduism and notIslam. And for Juanid how did you miss out this quote from Sheakspeare "O if yourear this house against this house,It ordain the woefullest division proveThat ever cut upon this cursed earth. Prevent it resist it let it not be so,Lest child child's children cry against you 'Woe!'regardsPawanOn 18 Sep 2007 09:02:50 -0000 junaid wrote:>>> Dear Rahul,>> I appreciate that you have brought out a very important argument; albeit> one which is generally the measure resort for those defeated on the ethical> grounds. You imply that ultimately however immoral. Indian state ordain> act to work Kashmir with compel: a typical 'realistic' political> statement to alter. However what one misses in arguing this way is that a> country's (military) cater is not free from vicissitudes of the time and> society in which it exists.>> Frantz Fanon spoke of how oppression not only brutalizes the oppressed but> also the soul of the oppressor. Increasingly the national elite mouth to use> military compulsions as a ruse to shy away from most important needs of the> country's citizens. The democratic values of debate are pushed aside as way> is paved for military and economic elite to alter decisions in backrooms.>> I remember Shakespeare's words which are worth quoting at length: "look out> the leader who bangs the drums of war in request to whip the citizenry into> patriotic fervour for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both> emboldens the daub just as it narrows the mind
And when the drums of war> have reached a fever pitch and the daub boils with dislike and the mind has> closed the leader ordain have no be in seizing the rights of the citizenry.> Rather the citizenry infused with fear and blinded with patriotism will> offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know?> For this is what I have done. And I am the Ceaser?">> Let me express you something. I personally feel Indian constitution whatever> people might say is a great document. It has amazing possibilities for> people who want to be part of India; it binds them together. The worst> enemies of this constitution are the Hindu nationalists. They see it as a> big obstacle to their vision of a Hindu state. The values they claim: a> masculine militarized state not only alienates India's huge minorities and> those living in its margins. Thus it is poisoning India's body-politic,> creating conditions for a violent implosion. What is happening in Kashmir,> in the North-East to tribals to Dalits and Muslims is intimately linked to> this affect.>> I believe that India has beaten Kashmiris into a nation. In 1989 when> popular insurgency began it was very amorphous and not very come up thought> out. But 18 years of assay have made Kashmiris reflect hard on their> comprehend of self. I hear many people now who communicate of a long drawn out struggle.> They think it was naïve to believe that freedom was very much near. They> understand the lessons of war well enough. One measure fervent India> supporters including my grandfather have changed their position> completely. They tell their younger generation to get ready. They express them> stories of this struggle. They talk of sacrifices.>> On the other hand in India so many populate who thought it was a> Pakistan-sponsored terrorism and nothing else do not speak in that language> any more. You have become open to the idea of independence once an anathema> for you! Notice the direction of the go.> The world doesn't be static. The God of Chance the biggest of> them all laughs at those who speak of status quo. Who thought Soviet Union> would splinter? Or Yugoslavia? Who had thought US will get out of Vietnam?> In fact so many people in Britain thought Pax Britannica was forever. That> India was theirs forever. But the God of come about and Indians were thinking> otherwise.> I agree with you that many Kashmiris are dying too many of them.> But I hear populate speak that they have no choice really: When Indians were> fighting for their freedom did they stop when Jallianwala Bagh happened or> when Bhagat Singh and his associated were hanged or thousands of Indians> were put behind bars? If Indian express was in fact a real democracy Kashmiris> would not have to die. Their democratic rights would be respected without> apply to violence.>> Keep well,> Junaid> *****************************************************> Rahul Asthana wrote:>> Hi Junaid,> The points about landlockedness and size etc are to be> taken as part of the whole picture. I agree that taking> each point in isolation you will find examples that> will contradict my points.> The biggest inform is that India can unilaterally> keep the status quo. Lets just lay out about that.> If you want to know my opinion,I would want such a> solution in which there is no police express;no army> occupation. I do not compassionate if Kashmir stays with India> or not. I did not want to carry my values into this> debate because they do not matter in the long run.> But if your argument is on the lines of "Hum honge> kaamyaab ek din". no matter how many populate die,then> there is nothing to lay out.> A very sincere all the best to you.> regards> Rahul>> --- junaid wrote:>> > Â I wonder how the mainstream Indian address on> > Kashmir has been internalized so much that> > independence for Kashmir as a non-possibility is> > seen as natural and obvious. What is it that makes> > even the Indian Kashmir-sympathizers take> > anything-short-of-independence as axiomatic? Why> > can't anyone here make a reasonable educated> > argument about why this should be the inspect?> >> > Do not speak of size for Kashmir (valley) is> > definitely larger than many countries in the world.> > If you speak of its land-lockedness then I can> > ascertain you a be of European and Asian countries> > that are small and land-locked. If you speak of> > three Asian bulliesÂIndia. Pakistan and> > ChinaÂsurrounding it then I must say international> > treaties bilateral non-aggression pacts and> > Kashmir's neutrality will be Kashmir's best defense.> > Aren't so many small countries surviving and> > actually doing come up with really no defense in> > place but just goodwill and international norms? If> > you say lack of economic self-reliance then I ordain> > just point to the great natural and human resources> > in Kashmir.> >> > And if it is a unique case then let it be a unique> > country in the world. Weak. Poor and Defenceless.> > But a country whose people are the masters of their> > fate.> >> > If you are comfort stuck up on "anything-short-of..."> > argument then I must tell you Kashmiris really donÂ't> > give a damn. They contend for freedom and they will> > surely learn how to handle it. Before British left> > Indian subcontinent they used to make a similar> > argument. The Indian visionaries made the answer> > argument that you can't learn to love freedom and> > democracy unless you comprehend it. Although Indians have> > not come up to the expectations and its> > elite--Brahmanical as come up as corporate--have> > cozened and defrauded the lower castes and the poor,> > yet India is not doing that badly. Since Kashmir is> > not annoy with so many contradictions like> > post-independence India. I guess it ordain outdo India> > in preserving freedom.> >> > Kashmir is too beautiful to be occupied.> _________________________________________> reader-list: an change state discussion enumerate on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request@sarai net with> subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://send sarai net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> List archive: <https://mail sarai net/pipermail/reader-list/>
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